Youthful Perspectives
Youthful Perspectives is based on the idea that Youth isn't a time in life but a state of mind. A state where curiosity is promoted, questions are encouraged, ideas are presented, and knowledge is obtained. Understanding that there's much we already know but, as Artistotle wisely wrote; "The more you know, the more you realize you don't know." Therefore, Youthful Perspectives is dedicated to those who view that statement as a challenge instead of a submission. To those tireless learners who are endlessly curious and constantly searching for differing perspectives on fields they've mastered and ones they strive to further understand; all in an effort to expand their Know.
Youthful Perspectives
#9 Fr. Kevin Anderson
Guest: A Priest at Christ Our Light Catholic Parish in Princeton Minnesota.
This is episode 9 of Youth Perspectives. I'm your host, mason Bierbaum. My guest today is Fr Kevin Anderson. Fr Kevin is a Catholic priest within the St Cloud Diocese and is currently preaching at Christ Our Light Catholic Parish in Princeton Minnesota. Educated at St John's School of Theology and Seminary, fr Kevin's philosophy on the Catholic faith is inclusive, positive and hopeful. During our conversation, we discussed a diverse range of topics like his direct calling to the priesthood, his methods for effectively delivering Jesus's teachings, how he interprets biblical texts, the differences between other denominations within Christianity, historical events within Christianity and his glass half full perspective on the world and the future. I learned an enormous amount during our conversation, and I hope you do too. And now here's Father Kevin Anderson. Well, thank you, father Kevin, for joining me today. I appreciate it. Before we get going, I think it'd be good to do just a brief overview of your background.
Speaker 2:Sure. So I am a Catholic priest in what we call the St Cloud Diocese, which is the middle part of Minnesota. They go by counties and it's the 17 counties, so just north of the Minneapolis area, and I grew up in Elk River, which is also in the St Cloud Diocese, and I spend most of my time in parishes around the St Cloud area.
Speaker 1:Nice, that's great. When you were growing up, did you always have the inclination that you were going to become a priest? Or when you were younger, did you have other goals? Like I know, when I was a kid, I wanted to be like a lawyer or something or like a basketball player when I got older.
Speaker 2:Well, my dad was a firefighter. He's passed now and so I think I had images of that. Actually, three of my brothers actually went into that volunteer firefighting and I think back in the day I wasn't close to the idea of being a priest but it wasn't like this is what I want to do. I think now a lot of people just say there's just no way, they want to do it. So maybe we'll get into that a little bit about the change of attitude yeah for sure.
Speaker 1:when and I'm curious because you grew up in a Catholic household, I would assume, and growing up that was probably a big part of your life as well Do you remember exactly when the idea of becoming a priest became more and more of something you were leaning in towards?
Speaker 2:Well, I have a really odd story because I actually had a specific calling moment where I heard the voice of God.
Speaker 1:Really.
Speaker 2:And telling me what to do.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So most people don't get that. I think maybe God was always calling me. I was just a little too dense to answer, but it was October 7th 1978.
Speaker 1:Wow, remember the date.
Speaker 2:I remember the date and the hour. I was out at St John's Abbey Church and I spent a day out in the wilderness trying to figure out my future, and I went to what they call evening prayer and during the evening prayer I had an experience, a God experience that I heard God specifically say out loud into my ear Kevin, why are you fighting me Really? And then from that it took me a couple of days to figure out what that meant. But it was like three days later that I oh supposed to be a priest, and then I followed that path. I have not regretted it one day since.
Speaker 1:Wow, that's fascinating.
Speaker 2:The funny thing about it is that literally no one in my life thought it was a good idea. No one encouraged it at the time. They said, no, god doesn't call your type and you should be holier, you should know more about the Bible. I said that's what I thought. But when you have the voice of God coming? So even my family and my mom was Catholic, my dad was Lutheran, he became Catholic. So I think we had a really healthy family background, the fact that we weren't overly anything. We went to church and it was just something you did. We didn't like it or hate it, it's just what we did. So even in my family we didn't do a lot of the typical Catholic rituals and practices, just because my dad wasn't into that, which kind of just framed all of us as kind of just, I'd say an average Catholic.
Speaker 2:It wasn't overly pious. I know a lot of priests. They grew up with parents that were really involved in the church or really dedicated to their faith. Ours wasn't at all. As a matter of fact, when I did tell my parents about this experience, they were not happy. They thought it was a mistake. Really. Yeah, and actually all my friends and family said, nope, this is not what you should do, Kevin.
Speaker 1:That would have been very unique to have God telling you that you should take this path in life and then you have the most important people in your life on earth telling you that you should not do this. Very conflicting.
Speaker 2:I would assume. But it was such a strong message that I didn't even doubt it, I didn't even waver, it's like well, I don't really care what other people think I got this connection.
Speaker 1:I should say so you were walking in the woods and do you? Remember if you were praying earlier that day.
Speaker 2:So what happened? I was, there's a chapel at St John's across the lake and I spent the day in that chapel up in the steeple trying to figure out my future, because I was student teaching at the time and I was going to figure out what am I going to do next? And I thought I'd figured out up there. Nothing happened. So on my way home back to my car, the bells of the Abbey Church were ringing and the monks of St John's were having evening prayer. Well, I went to St John's and I went to church, but I never went to what's called evening prayer. So I said well, you know, I got time, let me just sit there. And of course I'm sitting away from everybody else, and it's in that setting. I'm sitting there and not a clue what book to look at or pray.
Speaker 2:And I heard this big wind come through and I think that's really odd and the monks were praying, of course, moving their mouth. And then I went deaf and I could see the monks moving their mouths. I couldn't hear anything. I didn't realize I was deaf. And then I heard the voice Kevin, why are you fighting me? Of course. Then I thought it was a joke. There must be a speaker. There there's somebody sitting up behind a pew Didn't realize until then the wind came again, came through again and then I could hear again Wow. And then after that I went to talk to one of the monks about this whole what was happening and he said this is something. This doesn't happen here ever or often. And I thought, huh. So it took me like three days to determine what was I fighting. Was I drinking too much? Was I swearing too much? I'm going through this whole list and priesthood didn't occur to me until three days later.
Speaker 1:Wow, and when you heard that voice of God, did it sound like it was a male's voice or a female's voice?
Speaker 2:No one's ever asked me that before it was a male voice. Okay, it's what's got in my right ear.
Speaker 1:As if someone was putting their chin on my shoulder. It was that close. It wasn't a whisper, it was a loud, audible voice. Wow, I know, that's fascinating. I love going out to saint john's too. I live only maybe five, ten miles away from there, my home where my grew up, and it is such a tranquil, peaceful area to go reflect and just maybe go for a run out there. I know that's one of your interests is running and it's just like great time to look within yourself.
Speaker 2:It really is. It really is. It's just a gorgeous setting and of course, the monks pray regularly all through the day, and so anybody can go there, and I hadn't really much as a college student except like I said, may I go to daily mass once in a while with my buddies or something, but we'd go to Sunday Mass.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so when those three days pass, you're like, okay, maybe I should join the priesthood. What did you do after that then?
Speaker 2:Well, it's funny you ask because not only did I tell my parents that night that I and my, as I said, my dad, we're sitting at the kitchen table and my dad kicks the chair, son of a, we're sitting at the kitchen table and my dad kicks the chair. Son of a.
Speaker 2:Leaves, my mom starts crying and I'm like, huh, well, look at that, I better go home. So then the next day I told the woman I was dating at the time the same story. Of course she didn't take it too well because she was intending for us to get married.
Speaker 2:And I said I think so too. So we actually continued to date while I was in what's called a special student of the seminary You're not supposed to. But I was still like, well, let's get this going. And I still loved her and things like that. But I told my friends and again everybody was thinking no, it's the stress of student teaching. Take some time off, go see a therapist.
Speaker 2:I remember my little sister she was ninth grade at the time told her the same story, just like I told you. She starts crying also and she's like I was just getting to like you and now you're doing this. And I think the oddest thing, mason, is the fact that I think at the time people thought if you're going to be a priest or work in a church, you're going to turn out goofy, you're going to turn out weird, like somehow you go into this priest factory which is called a seminary, and now you're going to be so holy and you got to bless the plants and I think all my friends and family were worried that they couldn't burp anymore, fart anymore or tell dirty jokes in my prayer, that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:Well, in the course of the four years of seminary they have come to appreciate it. You know and meet other seminarians and appreciate just yeah, priesthood is, it's a calling, of course, but it doesn't mean that you have to be set apart. It doesn't mean that you are chosen to be different than people, and I think for a lot of people, they think that that somehow priests, somehow we're holier, and you've heard of Vatican II.
Speaker 1:I don't know, I know, like the Vatican City, but I'm not sure.
Speaker 2:Well, there was a big reform in the Catholic Church in the 60s.
Speaker 1:Oh yes.
Speaker 2:Called Vatican II Council and part of that. One of their big goals was to get back to kind of the ideas or teachings of Jesus and the whole idea that we're all in this together.
Speaker 2:It's not that there's a pyramid, someone's holier than somebody else, and lay people on the bottom and some of the popes on top and we fall. It's the whole idea that we're all on like like a big disc and we're all, we all. We all have a role, but we're all holy, and I think that's what a lot of my family friends were um dealing with. I think somehow that that they should be holier, that I will become more holy or pious or pompous or something like that yeah that's interesting because, like I said, that had to have been so unique to you.
Speaker 1:Telling your younger sister this, she starts crying. I just started to get to like you, but you're still the same person. You're still Kevin Anderson, but you're just a different path of life that you're taking now I have a role and it is, in a sense, I call it my calling experience.
Speaker 2:So I was called. I like to think that everybody's called Like not everybody responds.
Speaker 2:I think that everybody has a thing with God I'll call it an inner connection but a lot of people don't rely on it. Oh well, and that's nothing or something. But I find a lot of people are just not happy because they haven't found their calling or they haven't responded to their calling. Like I thought I wanted to do this and then they ended up doing that. And of course, people have to make money, they have to pay the bills. But I really really think for a lot of folks they would do better to listen to that voice of God, and perhaps God was calling me all the time.
Speaker 2:I just was too naive or dumb to listen, so God needed to, like boom, hit me over the side of the face to get my attention.
Speaker 1:That's so fascinating. Your emphasis, though, on the calling reminds me of a book by Viktor Frankl called the Man's Search for Meaning.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And how he was a psychiatrist who was Jewish got put into a concentration camp for I believe three years during World War II, and he just talked about those who had a purpose to survive or hold on. It seemed like they were more likely to survive the camp. And obviously that wasn't the case for everyone, that wasn't 100% going to happen.
Speaker 1:But just that idea of having something bigger than yourself that you're working towards, whether it's a family For him. He had a huge career in psychiatry that he was working towards. All these papers got destroyed and that was just that extra motivation for him to get through day in and day out and one of the hardest situations a human could ever be, put in so that emphasis, like you said, on having that meaning and that calling for something bigger.
Speaker 2:And I think it's even as simple as believing that the universe is good or the universe is evil or the universe is.
Speaker 2:You're just neutral about it. And I think people who really can tap into that know the universe is good, life is good. I think they're more prone to follow a calling where they have an attitude of openness, as opposed to being cynical, angry, defensive. They spend their whole life just in a bad place. I think God wants goodness for all people.
Speaker 2:There's a concept called original blessing. I don't know if you've ever heard of it. There's a concept called original sin. Most people heard of that and they think that we were born with sin. Well, that whole concept comes about because of the fall of Adam and Eve. You know they sinned. We all have sinned. Prior to Adam and Eve, there was the creation story that God said I made the earth, the trees, the animals, and they are good. And I made humans, and they are good, and I think that's God's original message for us. Hence original blessing, that we're all blessed. Is life hard, like Viktor Frankl said? Of course, do bad things happen to good people? Of course, but I think for all of us we're invited to, I guess, the calling of trusting God and recognizing that, no, god has good things in store for you and recognizing that no, this is God has good things in store for you. Many times we get derailed and say, well, I'm not going to go that direction, or I'm not going to believe it, or I'm not going to trust people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah Again. Powerful stuff, Very yeah, I'm good to ponder on from time to time.
Speaker 2:So once you decide to go into seminary, is it seminary school or is it called the seminary? It's called the seminary. Okay, and that was at St John's it was at St John's.
Speaker 1:What was that experience like for you?
Speaker 2:Wonderful. St John's is just a great place. What was unique about it at the time? And the seminary as such is just now open for monks there, but at the time it was open to what were called diocesan priests. That's what I am.
Speaker 2:I study for a diocese, so we had people coming from all over the country to study there and all my classes had women in them because they were getting their master's in theology. So all our education was very inclusive, so we couldn't at all just even be using exclusive language. God created all men, or he did this. I suppose we all had to be sensitive. So it educated myself and many of us just to say, wow, we can't get stuck in thinking God is only one way, or if we use this kind of language talking about everyone, it doesn't include everybody. So that really set me on a path of being more open, of being more inclusive to people, whether it's because of their gender or their political views or sexuality or marital status, all these things, and it was just a great education. St John's has always been known to be forerunners of the liturgical movement. They're always looking to like how can we stretch people more to be like in our liturgies, good music and um.
Speaker 2:I was trained very well in my what called homiletics class yes so, um, and I was very fortunate prior to that, I did a lot of stuff. Um, I was a musician, music major, in college, so I already had the um ability to stand in front of people and perform, and not that preaching is a performance, but I just I didn't have that jitters so I could talk and I did some shows, some play acting in high school and stuff, so I had that out of the way. So in my training at St John's I could really work more on the craft of giving a homily, where some of my classmates were still worried about am I going to faint or am I going to say something and I did that and just had excellent teachers. They could kind of like push me more to like, yeah, do, do, be more creative. I guess I have a reputation for trying to be lively in my homilies or more relevant, creative, and sometimes that brings in a song.
Speaker 2:Sometimes it brings in what we'll call a visual aid. My theory is like the visual aid approach is what Jesus did. It's like when he was talking about and then Jesus took a lamb. He actually would have a lamb sitting on his lap or a mustard seed. He actually was holding a mustard seed. So we don't have that in the translations of the Scripture, but that's my image that Jesus was very much a visual learner and for a lot of people, including myself, I learn better when I can see something. If the speaker or teacher is holding something, then I can, I can. Oh, I get it, I remember it. So even in my preaching I try to present something, whether it's a story or a song or a visual aid, to people go. Oh yeah, I remember that homily because you held this or you did that or something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's one thing I've we were talking before we started recording is I've always appreciated your homilies and it seems like those when I go to church with my family. It seems like that's the thing I am most tuned into and it seems like it takes a really good priest to really captivate the audience for a set period of time and also tie in, because homilies where you take the gospel and kind of apply it to, I guess it depends on how you go about it, your philosophy, but it seems like for you you take the gospel and you apply that to people's lives, their daily lives, too Correct, and I'm just like you said, you had great teachers to help you along the way, but that's probably something you also improved upon yourself as your career went on throughout the years too.
Speaker 2:What I try to do is I'm always working ahead a couple of weeks, so, like even now, I'm working at the homilies in my mind, like for the middle of January, which is like many weeks away from this recording date. So the fact that I've got the scriptures, I'm thinking about it, and then something like life will pop out at me. There'll be a quote, or there'll be something in the news or something that like oh, that's it.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's the hook. We use that image and then hopefully, present the scriptures. The difference between a sermon and a homily, like in the Protestant tradition, they give sermons, which could be about anything, they could talk about whatever, and a homily, specifically, is based on the reading, so they'll use it. Here's the readings of the day and then from that, then you go in and share a message, and what's cool about it is that sometimes the scriptures are really challenging, like I don't want to talk about that or I'd rather talk about this thing, and it makes me concentrate, makes me do some investigation about what the scripture says, but a lot of it really comes down to trusting God. Okay, god, what do you want me to say in this message? What do the people need to hear?
Speaker 1:you want me to say in this message? What do the people need to hear, and do you do that through prayer, mostly to find that message and how you want to put that out to the people in the church. Yeah, I do. That's again like I said, I just always appreciate effective public speakers. You seem like one of them, and so that's cool to just hear your process with that.
Speaker 2:And then the other thing I try to memorize them. There's always, always like quotes or something. I can have a piece of paper there to make sure I get the quote right, but I always think, if I can't remember it, how can people remember it? You know? So, like just so I so I, I actually work on it write it out. It's actually typed out and then from there I'll try to memorize it okay and I yeah.
Speaker 1:Is that, um, when you've done this job for many years now? Um, is that those homilies? Do you recycle them? For certain times, they already always try to do something different always different.
Speaker 2:sometimes I actually, because I said I write them out, I will um categorize them so I remember which joke I used. Or like, oh yeah, I reuse that story, so I don't want to reuse the story. Sometimes I have on purpose say I told reuse that story, so I don't want to reuse the story. Sometimes I have on purpose say I told you this back four years ago but I want to use it again, but trying to keep it fresh. And certainly some of the motifs or themes come back again and again, you know, like baptism of the Lord or the Good Friday, you know, but generally to try to keep it more fresh, yeah, what's going on.
Speaker 1:I'm sure people in the church appreciate that too.
Speaker 3:I hope so. Here's something new. I hope so. Yeah, I know I certainly do for sure.
Speaker 1:Could you summarize what a typical Catholic religious service looks like for people that might not know?
Speaker 2:Sure, well, typically it's an hour-long service and there are two parts. One is called the Liturgy of the Word and one is called the Liturgy of the Eucharist. So the first half of that hour is focused on Scripture and many times it'll have an Old Testament reading, a New Testament reading like one of the letters of Paul, and then a Gospel reading. There's a sequence. We call it a common lectionary so that most of the mainline religions Catholic, lutheran, methodist we use the same scripture but, like I said, in some of the other traditions they don't have to adhere to those scriptures. They could talk about anything. Second half is focused on the liturgy, and this is really what sets the Catholic service apart, because we gather around Christ, as we recognize Christ in the Eucharist and I talk about this a lot, especially to people who aren't Catholic or little kids, and we say that when we in the Catholic Church we'll have a lot of rituals. We kneel here, we stand here, we listen to this, and a lot of it is the same, such as you'd go anywhere in the world in a different language. You're going to see the same kind of pattern, but the real focus is the fact that we receive Christ and we receive Christ in the Word, like here's what the message is but also we receive Christ in the Eucharist, and the image that I give to people is that Christ is that sense of hopefulness. So we have this whole thing called Paschal Mystery death to life. The story doesn't end on good friday on the cross, the story ends with resurrection and so much of uh.
Speaker 2:The catholic church is based on that same principle doesn't stop in darkness, it goes to light. It doesn't start in woundedness, it goes to hopefulness. So when people receive the eucharist that's the little, many times it's a little wafer, uh, bread and the cup which is wine that was transformed into the blood of Christ. I remind people like eat hope, such as like, when you come to Mass, it's going to be a tough week coming up, there's going to be challenges. Eat that sense that God is with you, that you don't have to do this alone. Eat the sense of hope that you'll get through this, things will be okay. And so I always tell people golly, why would you miss, why would you miss this energy source, this food supplement, this presence of God that not only we think about, not only we hear about, but we get to consume.
Speaker 1:I think that's the huge difference and has that always been something in the catholic faith? I know? If I'm not mistaken, one of the main points like protestantism branched out from catholicism was like the interpretation of like it was. It was actually the flesh and the blood of christ, and some people were like like martin luther was like right, I don't, among other things, but he's like that's not the case correct.
Speaker 2:Transubstantiation is the official term that this bread and this wine. It's still in the form of bread and wine, but it's more than that. It is the presence of christ. So a way to think of it. In every church they'll have this big box thing in the back called a tabernacle, and so we'll always consecrate or bless hosts more than we need so that we have them called a tabernacle. And so we'll always consecrate or bless hosts more than we need so that we have them in the tabernacle. And then we'll take to people who are in the hospital or people who are sick. So we always have that presence of Christ, so we don't. In other churches I mean no disrespect, but they'll bless the bread and they say this reminds us of Jesus, and so when they're done with the service, if they have any left over, they'll just throw it away. It's like, well, that's just bread. The Catholic Church they don't. This doesn't remind us. This is the presence of Christ and we have to reverence that. So we will.
Speaker 1:I appreciate the glass half full sort of perspective you take on that in the sense of take this hopefulness consume it into your own body, which probably also emphasizes the importance of going to church to consume that Eucharist, because you can listen online and hear the homilies and everything and the gospel, but if you're not in there sitting in the pews consuming the bread and the wine, then you're not getting the whole message of what I'm hearing you say.
Speaker 2:Right, you have it exactly. And some of our Protestant cousins. They do more of a word and worship type of thing praise and worship, where they'll get together and they'll sing songs, great songs. They'll have a band, maybe there'll be a sermon that's like 40 minutes long or it's kind of more of a Bible study and they're great services. But it's not the same in our tradition because it's it's based on that presence of christ and and I as the priest, I'm just, I'm the minister of the christ or I'm the kind of like, not that I represent christ, because we all do that, but in the sense of I'm, I'm the one who gets to bless this or one who gets to call this forth. But I'd like to say that everybody is celebrating that, everybody. Even on a bad week they're still there to be and receive Christ. Be Christ for each other. Receive Christ more to carry on.
Speaker 1:And it seems like that just sense of community within the church too, even for those that might not be religious. Maybe on Christmas they are forced to go to church with their family. Maybe on Christmas they are forced to go to church with their family Still a powerful experience, even if you're not subscribing to the beliefs and the words that are being said on the altar. But that sense of community is just fundamental, it seems like, to faith, whether it's Catholics, protestants, jews or Muslims. That's just a very important part.
Speaker 2:It seems like and I think for a lot of people, especially young people, they get turned off by any kind of group that is exclusive, any group that says sorry, you have to do it this way, or you don't belong, or you have to think this. You don't belong. And in my upbringing, starting from St John's and I worked at Newman Center at St Cloud State for many years we really try to promote the whole idea of acceptance, of tolerance, of welcoming everyone, no matter what their background was or their sense of the journey. Everybody's wounded in a way, so we say, okay, welcome, you know, welcome in your woundedness that you're a part of our community.
Speaker 1:And is that something that came out of that Vatican II philosophy?
Speaker 2:Right, which is really weird, because there's a whole movement now from some people. They want to go back to what we call a pre-Vatican II mentality and the fact that they want to be exclusive and the fact that they want to say I'm sorry, you don't deserve to be here or you don't think like us, so you're not welcome here. It's just really odd. It's bigger than the church. That happens in politics. That's happening all over the world, where people, I think and the theory I heard is that people such as yourself, mason, have grown up with social media and like the cell phone.
Speaker 2:So everything seems in turmoil, the whole world seems in chaos because you've got breaking news and this and that, and it's always bad news, and so for some people they're trying to get back to some kind of normality. So if they can go back to the time when this sounds weird god only loved catholics, or god only loved white males, or and on and on, you see all the goofiness of it um, it doesn't have any longevity to it. I understand it because it, but it's operating out of fear, thinking that the world is falling apart or the world is getting worse. I go back to my comment before that. If you think that, then of course it's going to take you down that rabbit hole of we have to hate certain people, we have to exclude some people, we have to make sure that these people get the same rights and values as us. It's a craziness, but to me that goes exactly against the Jesus message.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it seems like, if anything, with all the turmoil that is now maximized by social media and just breaking news stories, you would want to send out that message to as many people as possible, instead of shrinking the people that can hear that message too. So people as possible, instead of shrinking the people that can hear that message too. So it's almost seems like a backwards sort of philosophy and I think, based in fear, they're fearful of them.
Speaker 2:So if we can somehow make it exclusive or this is the only thing, so um, and I think for first, there's certainly some young people that are attracted to that just because there's life seems in turmoil, but I think the majority and their deeper sense, I think people have that sense of um, they want to be more tolerant, they want to be more inclusive, they want to be more loving, and people like your age probably grew up with more awareness, whether because of skin color or gender identity or faith. That, and that's that's my hope for the world, for young people like yourself, that they can say no, we're not going to go down that way of hating these kind of people or making sure they don't come into our borders or that they can't get married, or however you want to say it. I just find a lot of I find hope for the world in young people like yourself.
Speaker 1:Well, I appreciate that. I think it's interesting too on a lot of fear-based assumptions people have towards people that are different from themselves. Is just a lack of exposure For myself, grew up in a town, went to high school. I was probably 98% white and Christian-oriented in one way or another.
Speaker 1:And now I've talked about this many times you go down to the University of Minnesota and you see so many. You go from one end of the campus to the other end and you hear probably five different languages from all over the world and you just learn so many things and it shows you how much you already know a lot, but there's a lot that you don't know yet.
Speaker 2:What a gift for you and for a lot of young people just to think that the way that I grew up is not the only way, that everybody has to think like this or everybody has to talk like this. What a gift, and that's one of the brilliance of that, is the good thing of social media and also the good thing of getting an education where you have to be stretched. And even in our church here, we had obviously the elections of late and we had people who voted on both sides and, as we always said, the Catholic umbrella or the Catholic tent is huge. That includes everybody, as opposed to you can only vote this way or you have to think that way, and some denominations are like that. Even from the pulpit, the preacher is saying this is the only way. If you do it that way, you're doing it wrong. I love the Catholic Church. Even our good Pope had said the same thing.
Speaker 1:I think too, necessarily, when you talk about divides politically or what have you they always talk about that rural urban divide. And one of those things I've witnessed to Growing up in a rural area, going to an urban area is like I wish they could have my parents brought this up to me, because they're both public school teachers. If you could have a system where you have people in like a rural area, go down to the cities in Minneapolis or st Paul and study for a week and then you have people from the cities come up to you know rural Stearns County or maybe, and see what it's like up there and you just get that exposure and that maybe that sense of the other is minimized, just a tiny bit, yeah, and I think that's the jesus way too, because jesus was always.
Speaker 2:He was challenging the people who thought they were in. They thought they were, they made it, they were pharisees, they obeyed the rules. He was. He was challenging them to like let go be humble. And he was always trying to bring up those who didn't think their lives were worth anything Cause they were the we call the Anawim, if you heard that the outcast people, people on the edges. He was always trying to bring them up, saying no, there's more to you, so bring down the high ones and bring up the low ones. Jesus constantly, constantly, was trying to do that.
Speaker 1:You've mentioned the importance of scripture within the religious services too, and I'm assuming you've read the Bible many times over, just out of interest and necessity when it comes to that. Do you have a favorite passage from the Bible that you always return to, maybe in times of trouble, or just one that you appreciate?
Speaker 2:Wow, that's a great question. There's so many the Psalms. Are those who are listening to this? If you get a chance to pick up your Bible and look like, say, it's Psalm 139, which talks about how God is with us in all places, that we can't run from God, and Psalm 51 is, like you know, creating me a clean heart. There's a verse in there just saying like let me start over again, type of thing. But I think, like 1 John, you know, in the beginning, was the word, the whole idea that God's message of this Christ-like I was talking before happened way before Jesus was born. That whole message of seeing Christ in everything was always there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's great. I know that's one thing. I'm very interested in, history. So, just as, like a historical document, the Bible is such a fascinating book, but then also from like the spiritual standpoint too, the amount of knowledge that you can get from it too.
Speaker 2:So here's a good quote for you. Okay, everything in the Bible is true and some things actually happened In the fact that many times people look at the Bible and they want it to be like a news report. It was exactly this many people, this many animals on the ark or whatever it is, and that was never the purpose. It was meant for a deeper understanding. We call it a theological or spiritual understanding. So when it says that Jesus fed 5,000 men, there's some people thinking it could not be 5,001 or 4,999. They have to be stuck on that exact number or the age of Abraham or Noah.
Speaker 2:That was not. The purpose is to record accurately, but it was meant to bring them to a deeper understanding, like Jesus feeding, that Jesus fed a lot of people, as opposed to the exact number. And I think that's one of the things when you study the Bible For me it was too when you first are open to that like wow, not everything in the Bible has happened. It's all true, but it didn't always happen. It was a metaphor, it was symbolic. And then there's parts of the Bible that they differ on the facts and you have to reconcile that somehow with yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've always interpreted that in the sense of some of the things, too, that might not be physically possible, like, for example, walking on water unless it's frozen.
Speaker 2:That no, human is able to do that.
Speaker 1:But some people might argue that Jesus is, you know, transcends, like humanity in some sense. But I always viewed it as, more metaphorically speaking, to make a point and I don't know if that comes from like the lack of education way back in the day, and just to hone in those points like you did, to kind of make the people that are in the church understand what God is trying to say through these services or what.
Speaker 2:But I think that's also an important way to look at it Right and a way of thinking of it is when anybody, especially all your listeners here, when they read any piece of the Bible or the Quran or any holy book, is to think of that it is for them. So, like the story you just said Jesus walking on water it's like what does that mean for you? How is Jesus inviting you out of the boat to come and trust and like maybe your water is like oh, I'm going to go into this major or I'm going to go into this relationship. So Jesus is already there saying come and join me. So, as opposed to getting stuck on the historical fact, was it water, was it ice? Did he do it? But it's like no, what does it mean for you right now? How is Jesus calling you out of the boat and say come, come, join me here in this impossible thing?
Speaker 1:Yeah that seems like the proper way to fixate on that is the sense of how does it relate to myself? And my family instead of the, like you said, 5,001 or 499. Don't get nitpicky with the details. Necessarily Is that something that you learned at St John's.
Speaker 2:Definitely, definitely. They emphasize that Right and said great scripture scholars. And so we went behind the text a lot and comparative text. Redactive criticism was the technique they called. Yeah, that's important just to have that educational standpoint too.
Speaker 2:And the Bible is ready, available to everybody. But sometimes people get stuck in thinking like if it's not in the Bible then it didn't happen or it's not true, and so much of our Catholic Church goes alongside the Bible. I would say there's a way of thinking of Catholic Church. Think of a stool that you sit on that has three legs on it. One of the legs is Scripture. One of the legs is the Catholic doctrine, or all the rules. The other leg is your own experience. All three are valuable. If one's missing, you're going to fall over.
Speaker 2:But some people only focus on the Catholic doctrine what did the Pope say? Or what's going on? Some people only focus on scripture, like what is it's got to be in the Bible, and some people only focus on they and what it's got to be in the bible, and some people only focus on they and god. What do you kind of a new age like it's just me and god. All three are important, but all three are complementary and all three need to balance each other it's like a venn diagram so overlapping in one way or another.
Speaker 1:That's very important perspective to hold right there um. One of your passions, I've read, is canoeing.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And when you're canoeing I'm assuming you're in nature doing this. So while you're out canoeing, or just in nature in general, how do you see God in nature?
Speaker 2:Oh, wow, that's a great question, mason, because I've been lucky enough to go up to the boundary waters actually the Canadian boundary waters, which is called Quetico, so we have the United States Bounderwaters which we all heard of. The Quetico borders it, but you have to actually go up to Canada to get there, and so up there it's a little more rugged, there's less people and, like, the trails aren't groomed as well, and so you typically aren't going to see other people or other animals because they run away like they should. I've been going up there, gosh, for almost 40 years with the same group of men there's the three of us and we just not only are they good guys to be with, but just have that reverence of nature Because we don't bring phones.
Speaker 2:We don't bring watches, and so you really have living off the earth. It's like what time do you wake up? Well, when you're awake, or when you want to eat, when you're hungry, and instead of looking at the phone for the weather report, we have to look up at the sky and say, hmm, you think it's going to rain. But just the whole idea of I alluded to before, seeing the goodness in everything, seeing the Christ in everything. Do trees fall down? Of course they do. Are there tough portages? Is there windy days that we're going? Of course Are there tough portages? Is there windy days that we're going? Of course. Are there days we don't catch fish? Of course, but mostly it's the whole idea. I feel more myself when I'm up there, like I get the strength to come back to a computer and a work schedule. I'm lucky enough because one of the days we go up there we actually celebrate Mass, because we have a priest that's me, yeah.
Speaker 2:So we do this kind of elongated service where we kind of do a long check-in about life, like what was the high and low of your last 12 months? It's just been a beautiful ritual.
Speaker 1:Yeah, a great reset for the technology-driven world that we're in. Just to go off the grid, unplug.
Speaker 2:And I think it's important that it's wild, because a lot of people can go in their backyard, which is still good, but that's a mowed lawn, or they go to a park which is groomed. There's something about the wildness of any place that kind of brings us back to, like you said, a reset.
Speaker 1:That reminds me of the importance of having the national park service in the united states. And just the foresight teddy roosevelt and all those other individuals had and creating that and sustaining, preserving the natural beauty that we have in this country and other countries following suit, like canada, doing that as well. Just the amount of knowledge that you can get from nature, all the metaphors that are there if you look closely enough. I just watched um the ken burns documentary with leonardo da vinci that was just released this last year, and he talks about how the human body.
Speaker 1:He views the um human body as, like the earth. They have the wind and the water and the fire and all this and it's just like the interconnectedness between humans and the earth itself and how there's similarities between like tree branches and how they might look like lungs or the brain, and just the unique parallels that that entails so like that, I like that, and I hope all your listeners will find the time to go out into wilderness, whether it's a prairie, whether it's the mountains, whether it's the ocean, somewhere where they are disconnected with, like they don't have their phone with them or their computers.
Speaker 2:They really can just be present there.
Speaker 1:Do you think the decrease of faithfulness in America, and especially young people, is because of this urbanization that has increased since the Industrial Revolution, but especially these last few years? Also the increase of the phone and people kind of getting disconnected from nature itself and more tuned into the phone. What's your opinion on that?
Speaker 2:Well, you know, I think all the advances of technology is wonderful and I'm old enough to remember when people were horrified when people could have a cell phone, like what's going to be the demise, and I'm sure before that, when there was TVs in homes type of thing. It depends how you're going to use them, but certainly anything that advances knowledge and inclusive is wonderful. But when people hunker down and they get more closed off, like I'm just going to stay at home and do video games or I'm just going to watch this one program or this one news network, that's another thing. I find that whenever there's a shocking thing in the world, I will oftentimes try to listen to different views on it, absolutely as opposed to this. My one network only tells me this just to say well, what are other views saying?
Speaker 2:So yeah, I think it's tougher for younger people, I think today because they are more glued to their phones. Um, I do retreat work and many times we'll have young people will ask them to give up their phones for this weekend and that's always tough, but at the end of the time they go wow, is that wonderful, I felt free for the first time. I didn't feel so glued or I didn't feel so, you know shielded by it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's an unfortunate thing too. It's just, I'm sure there's a lot of people that are my age younger, maybe a little bit older, that would love to get off their phone, but it seems like the world is just so connected through that, the iPhone or your computer. What have you? And that fear of missing out, right?
Speaker 2:That's huge.
Speaker 1:It's a very powerful feeling. It is. And it's hard to combat that. But, like you said, there's a short-term pain of giving that up, but the long-term gain that you get from those weekend retreats where you're off your phone.
Speaker 2:And I think for everybody, just even to have a little chunk every day where you're not glued to your phone, like I pray every day and my best prayer time is in the morning and I do that without the phone, but inevitably there's a couple podcasts or different things. I want to look up quotes and I really have to struggle not going down that hole of oh, what's this or how is that going on. But when I can just stay focused in the prayer, I know my day is better.
Speaker 1:What is your method when it comes to praying? You do it in the morning you set, or you find that most effective. Right, Just walk me through what your method is for that.
Speaker 2:And to preeminent that. I've got a theory that everybody needs. I should say I need three things every day Good sleep, good exercise, good prayer, and so emphasis on good, because everyone sleeps, but to get an adequate amount, eight hours and restful things, to get exercise, good exercise, actually do something every day. And if you can't get to the gym, well, do some pushups before you shower, just do something. And then, of course, the prayer, the emphasis so I get the luxury of well, I make it a good hour every morning.
Speaker 2:There are other times I pray as a priest. We have a thing called the divine office which is focused on the psalms and readings. So we're invited to start with that reading, the set pattern of psalms and readings. And then I always, always, always, do journaling and I have been journaling for gosh, almost 50 years, and it's just basically it's not a diary, but journaling is kind of an ongoing letter to God. And what I've really come across lately is doing a dialogue journal where I'll write something and I'll ask, like Jesus, a question and I'll let Jesus respond in my journal. It's so powerful. So many times it's like what am I going to do about this? So when you look at my journal. Many times it looks like a play script, like with my name semicolon, here's the question, jesus semicolon, here's the answer. And I always tell people if you want to know what God is going to say to you, well ask.
Speaker 2:Try journaling, Let God respond and then in my own prayer time. Then oftentimes what I'll do is I have another technique they call it examine which is kind of a technique of just examine what's going on, what's this been in your day, and then with that I'll throw in times where I'm going to do spiritual reading, Other times of praying for people They've asked me for pray to perform, but generally an hour is. I'll get through all that.
Speaker 1:So you just need a quiet spot to yourself.
Speaker 2:I've got a corner in my place where I live, my house, I have my coffee, my morning coffee. I light a candle, obviously like we have one lit here, and then just take that time, and so I try not to answer the phone if somebody calls. It's the first thing in the morning before I start going on my day.
Speaker 1:And when you're praying, do you get those responses from God or Jesus right away, or is that something that comes about later on through your day? Always right away, but part of it is.
Speaker 2:I let God talk Like so in my journaling and I tell people, try it. Actually I've taught a couple classes on it, how to journal. Because people say, well, maybe you're just writing what you want to hear. And I say, well, you haven't tried it, have you? Just really let go. Because most of us we know what the message of Jesus is going to be. Jesus is not going to say go kill this person or go steal this thing. Most people would know, even if they're not devout Christians or avid churchgoers. And so with that I find even in my journaling, jesus is always affirming. He's always like you'll get through this, that sense of the Eucharist, with the hopefulness. Many times Jesus is saying, yep, this will turn out, don't have to worry, I got this, you're doing good.
Speaker 1:I've heard many people. There's a man on the internet who's big into stoicism. His name is ryan holiday and he just emphasizes the importance of journaling and how therapeutical that can be, to yourself and whether you believe in a religion or not right you can still get so much benefit from that introspective look into yourself and your soul, necessarily, and just see what's I'm not doing so good like I should be doing.
Speaker 1:Why is that? Let me write out my thoughts here, and then you can go back and reflect, and if you're having a bad time, why was this bad? And then, when you're in good times and you're recording it, maybe you can find common patterns between that too.
Speaker 2:Yes, I definitely agree with that, and what I do once a year is I'll go back and read my journal from the past 12 months. I'm going to do it coming up next couple weeks, and in my journal I'll also put quotes or song lyrics that touched me, or even my night dreams. I'll write the dream out in somewhat of an interpretation so that when I go back to 12 months, many times I'm like oh yes, look at this pattern. I have been focused on this or I've had a dream in this vein for a while there. So that's always. The best part of journaling is to go back and read them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I should get more into that. I mean, I have a notebook in my lap as we speak right now and it's neglected more than it should be. It's unfortunate, so it's a good challenge for myself, maybe with the it's being New Year's Eve right now as we're recording this. It'd be a good New Year's resolution.
Speaker 2:What I tell people is just have a journal, and maybe there are times, maybe you don't write it every day.
Speaker 1:That's okay.
Speaker 2:We have enough guilt about things. But to date it like here's the date that I'm writing and I'll always put where I am, like I'm at home or I'm at Inquietico, so it helps me frame it. So when I go back to it I can look at it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, that'll be something I will have to work on here. All right as you're hearing all the benefits that come from it. You kind of alluded to this earlier, with people with different backgrounds and experiences, that diversity, and I'm curious, as a priest, how do you make the more inclusive environment within your church?
Speaker 2:Wow, that's a great question.
Speaker 2:Certainly, we try to have an openness for people, like we say there's a song that's very popular, called All Are Welcome, and we really try to live that that you are welcome here, no matter what your background was. So we really have that. So we have a lot of people who would. Some people would consider shouldn't be going to church or shouldn't be going to the Eucharist, like they're in a gay relationship or they just went through a tough time of divorce, they had an abortion, and we say you know what? We're all sinners, everyone's welcome here. I find, like in my preaching or my homilies, one of the things that unifies all of us is when I can share a story, how I goofed up, because if I go and say, oh, I had a great week and this was a wonderful time and Jesus talked to me, that's going to exclude a lot of people.
Speaker 1:Not as relatable.
Speaker 2:Right. But if people say, ah, here's how I goofed up again. I dropped the ball here, I messed up. People can go oh yes, I dropped the ball here, I messed up. People can go oh yes, I get that.
Speaker 1:That becomes the hook where people say, yeah, when you deal with people within your church too, I'm assuming they come and talk to you about religious experiences they've had or felt. Is there any throughout your career that come to mind of one that really stood out to you like, wow, I can't believe that happened to someone, or maybe one that's happened in church necessarily? I know that's. That's probably a big question to ask you on the spot.
Speaker 2:I've got a story for you. All right, you ready for a story? Absolutely so. When I was newly ordained this is like gosh 41 years ago. I'm up in Little Falls and one of the things we do is go visit people who are sick. So, and I at the time hated doing that because I didn't know what to say, and many times I've never met these people, but they're sick and I'm supposed to pray with them and say something hopeful, and so I just dreaded it.
Speaker 2:Well, this one day, I'm up at the hospital in Little Falls and I'm going to the room and as I'm standing in the doorway, in the threshold of the room, the light goes off above me. It's a code blue, which means the person, the patient, is dying. So code blue, code blue. And I'm just standing in the doorway and all these doctors and technicians, nurses, come running into the room. I'm still in their way. I'm just standing in the doorway, like I don't know what to do. I just gosh. This is like TV, this is panicky, and they're all like oh my gosh, we're losing her.
Speaker 2:We're losing her. We don't get her. We don't get her. So I'll call her Rosie, ok to protect her. And we lost her. We lost her. And they did the heart. What do you call?
Speaker 2:it. Oh, the AED or whatever. It's not working, it's not working. So we got it and I can see on the screen that she just flatlined. But for some reason I go up to her, I put my hand on her forehead and I said, rosie, you're going to be okay. Everything kicked in. She came back, the monitors, and all of us just stood there over the bed kind of like with our hands above her in awe, just like this was really freaky. And then, after a long silence, one of the doctors turns to me and says hey, you want a job here? I said no, I want to go home and have a nervous breakdown.
Speaker 2:This was just so incredible and obviously it wasn't me but, that was a moment that God had chosen, and I was just a vehicle. Yeah, and she lived. Wow, she lived and carried on for many years.
Speaker 1:That's fascinating.
Speaker 2:It's very fascinating.
Speaker 1:As someone like yourself, I mean, that has to be just an almost life-changing experience. When you went home and journaled about that, what were your thoughts afterwards? Were you overwhelmed?
Speaker 2:I would assume yeah, and very humbled, because obviously I don't think that I am now an official healer and I should go on TV nothing like that at all. But just like, wow, how are you calling me, god, to do this more? Just, in little ways, maybe healing by saying hi to somebody in the grocery store, maybe healing by just letting someone merge in traffic. It just opened up the whole sense of like. That was a powerful event, of course, but I and everybody were all called to let Christ work through us. I just happened to get out of the way at that moment.
Speaker 1:That's a great story. I've heard stories like that maybe not necessarily, where you literally bring someone back to life, but religious moments like that, where something very unusual happens, and it's just like that's got to be very um awe-inspiring to be in the presence of that it was and and again for your listeners out there.
Speaker 2:You all have it, trust it there. You all have had moments that have just been wonderful, whether you call it a little miracle or a big miracle, this aha or this wow, what a coincidence, or wasn't that lucky? And many times we just shrug it off and I say no. Honor those as God moments.
Speaker 1:And it's important too, like you said, whether it's smiling to someone in the grocery store, letting them merge in. You don't have to necessarily save someone's literal life in that story, like you said, but you can do that and maybe they're having a bad day or they're depressed and maybe they could be suicidal, perhaps, and they see one person give them that act of kindness, exactly that might save them Right and I think we all have that possibility every day, one of the things in this examine that I talked about earlier.
Speaker 2:it ends with me saying how will you surprise? Me today. God, and so once you start looking for that, you'll always find it. Once you start looking, well, god, I wonder how you're going to figure this out. Or I wonder what's another opportunity for me to see your presence or what's another opportunity for this to come together. And once you open yourself to that, it always, always happens, but most people don't.
Speaker 1:They get busy they get distracted, they get cynical, they just try to survive, you hear? Stories like that, though that makes you want to, it motivates yourself to do something like that.
Speaker 2:So that's great. And again for your listeners out there, it's not because I'm a priest I mean that is nice, but it's just. It's really because of Christ and the presence of God for everybody, Everybody has that potential.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. We kind of talked about some criticisms maybe you have with the church and like them being inclusive, not more reclusive from people. They don't want to bring people in. I'm just curious if you have any more critiques of the priesthood or Christianity in general.
Speaker 2:Well, there are some priests, good men, who somehow they want to improve their church or they want to improve people. So their technique is guilt and shame.
Speaker 2:If I can, from the pulpit, shame people or guilt them. The easiest sermon to give is guilt, because you can instantly make people feel bad. You didn't do this enough, you did this, you goofed up on that. The hardest ones is to instill hope or goodness or joy, just to find that, even in a situation where, let's say, this tragic event happened in a community a tornado went through, to preach then about the hopefulness, about hey, yeah, but you can go back to Viktor Frankl this awfulness of a concentration camp.
Speaker 2:Still, there were people who were hopeful even in the midst of all these bad things happening, and there were some people who weren't, and to try to key into that. But I think there are just a lot of people, their technique and this happens everywhere coaches, teachers. They try to scare people or they try to work on shame and guilt. Parents sometimes parents do it too. I'm going to get you to be better, so I'm going to guilt you into this, or I'm going to shame you or punish you, as opposed to, hey, I'm going to lead you into another way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's interesting because I know, as as someone who's played sports in high school, if your coach yells at you, you don't like that feeling of being yelled at, so you're going to try to do more so that doesn't happen again. And I'm assuming that could be the same for a priest too. You make people in the church feel guilty. Well, they're going to try to work so they don't feel guilty again it's not a comfortable feeling. No one wants to feel guilt, but you take the harder stance and make people feel inspired, there you go.
Speaker 1:That can be more powerful too.
Speaker 2:And I find that like, let's say, let's say there's someone in your family who smokes and you nag on them, that usually doesn't have any effect. They might change for a little bit, but I find that love can change people in compassion, but guilt, shame, you know, like nagging on them doesn't change in the long run. So even in these parishes where people are really focused on exclusivity or guilt and shame, you've got to do it this way. It's okay for a little bit, it might help some people in the short run, but I think in the long run it's the way of Jesus Love, acceptance in the short run, but I think in the long run it's the way of Jesus Love, Acceptance.
Speaker 1:That reminds me of a bit of a history nerd myself when it comes to things and Lincoln's second inaugural when the Civil War is winding down with malice towards non-charity for all. It could have easily been like.
Speaker 1:These people deserve to be punished for rebelling against the United States bloodiest war in our history. It's their fault and they have to feel the pain that we have felt and they inflicted on the northern states, but instead malice towards none charity for all, and that could be a lesson for modern day too, with this polarization. A lot of people feel If you just be more understanding, more empathetic and have more apathy, less apathy, more empathy, it wasn't in Lincoln.
Speaker 2:In his first inauguration speech called upon the better angels of our nature, yes, the whole idea that we all have that, whether you believe in angels or not. But just the better character we all can do better and I think people are attracted to that and so if we have success in our parish it's not because of me, but it's because of everybody, that everybody's trying to be welcoming and not judgmental. So let's say there's a baby crying, as opposed to someone looking back and scolding them or giving them a dirty look to say hey, I'm glad you're here, can I help in any way? Or greeting people beforehand. We really try to emphasize people not to run off after church Linger. We have donuts and coffee and many times we'll have programs. Just linger a bit and get to know each other, because sometimes I talked about the presence of Christ, like you mentioned, the place where people are going to see it is the person sitting next to them.
Speaker 2:The homily didn't work, they didn't get it in the music or the readings. But wow, this person shook my hand or said I'm glad you're here, or smiled at me and sometimes we don't, uh, or we undervalue that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that might not be a big act from your perspective, but from the person you're doing that towards, that could be. That could be huge.
Speaker 2:Exactly what they needed, that affirmation.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Um last question, when it comes to more like occupational ones that I have for you what advice would you give to those who are struggling with their faith?
Speaker 2:The biggest thing I would say is to connect with God In some way. Find there's a term in Alcoholics Anonymous called the higher power. It's God. And in Star Wars I don't know if you are a fan oh yeah, we'll call it the force. Be with you, yes. So whatever term you want to use, because I think for some people they get tripped up with the terminology of god or they're like, oh, I can't believe your god because it's this and says that. Well then, change that narrative, change the word, and I say from everybody just connect with god. And a real simple thing and you can all try, all your listeners can try this Tonight, before you go to sleep, just ask this force, this uncaused cause, whatever you want to say, this entity, light, jesus, holy Spirit.
Speaker 2:Just talk and maybe say what was one thing challenging about your day and one thing good about your day. Sometimes people only pray when they need something, which is kind of a real bad relationship If the only time I called my friend Joe is when I needed something. Joe, can I borrow 10 bucks? Joe, can you give me a ride? And I didn't call Joe about. Hey, I had a good day, or Joe, how are you doing Same thing with God If it's only one of asking please help me, and God's willing to do that.
Speaker 2:But I say just check in, check in with God every day. So if you're struggling with your faith, if you're listening to this, try it. Just real simple. Just talk to God like you're talking to a friend and don't ever be afraid of swearing or using bad language. Same thing in my journal that I don't have to edit it at all, I just let it out and it's the constancy of it. When you do that on a regular basis, then there's this benefit of saying I'm not alone. It's not just do it tonight, but do it tomorrow night and the next night, and it can be real simple. Or another way I tell people is maybe when they do something routine anyway, like they're brushing their teeth in the morning, well, maybe just think of what you're thankful for. Or you're showering, just to say, hey, god, how are you going to surprise me today? Again, it's that routine.
Speaker 1:That beneficial, that almost transcends religions too just to just be thankful, count your blessings, as the cliche goes.
Speaker 2:Religions and faiths. It's a matter of the christian or not, just to just to go and again, it's all the same god. However we name god or the titles we use, that pray towards that being it's all there you go.
Speaker 1:Now I kind of want to shift towards more like social and historical questions. We've alluded to a few throughout the conversation, but my first one I have here is could you explain the differences between Protestantism and Catholicism?
Speaker 2:Well, the word Protestant means protestant, so at some point they protested against something and they had the same roots. If you think of a tree, they started with the same trunk of the tree and for most of our Protestant brothers, once the printing press got invented, the people could read the Bible more, and then with that, they started saying hey, wait a minute. There's some things I like changed in the church, like you alluded to, before Martin Luther 1500s, and the changes were definitely definitely valuable, such as let's make our services in the language of the people as opposed to in Latin, let's allow our ministers to get married and Protestant ministers, or let's just get away with some of the goofy things, like they held things called indulgences, where you're kind of sort of paying for this good things to happen, and again awful like. I'll give an example. Let's just say someone comes to a priest for confession and the priest absolves them. They said I want to know if I'm absolved. Well, okay, why don't you do this more? No, no, I really want to know. Okay, why don't you give some money to the poor? No, no, I really want to know. Okay, why don't you give some money to the poor? No, I really really want to know why don't you give some money to my new church fund? Yeah, and then you can see how that could get manipulated, that all of a sudden, hey, you come in, this is what I expect of you. Give money toward this new church fund, or something like that.
Speaker 2:And I think Martin Luther was trying to wake everybody up to say this is wrong. And it was wrong. And he did it because the church did change, called the Counter-Reformation. But once you started protesting if you think of branches of a tree, we had one trunk and once you branch out, then it's easy for someone to branch out again to say, well, I don't like what you did, so I'm going to start my own religion. Well, I don't like what you did, so I'm going to start my own religion. Well, which you did? So I'm going to start my own religion. The problem is you can get way far away from the trunk and the view is that Catholic Church and some of the mainline Protestant churches are closer to the trunk. We haven't branched off because really you, mason, could just start a church you want tonight. You know, just go online and say, hey, I've now started Church of Mason, and have people come, and then you're saying da-da-da-da-da-da-da. Well, there's something about being connected to the trunk. There's something about being connected to a social core.
Speaker 1:This is what we believe as a people, and for that trunk originates from Jesus, would you say.
Speaker 2:I'd say the ground level is Jesus, the roots are Jewish, yeah, so it came from that whole tradition, that roots are Abraham and Moses and then with Jesus the start of Catholicism and Acts starting the church grows for 1,500 years. Then it started branching out.
Speaker 1:Interesting. Yeah, that's a great analogy to visualize that in your mind. That's a very helpful way, because I think a lot of people throw it out like, oh, I'm a Christian, or I'm a Catholic, I'm a Protestant. They're maybe not necessarily aware of what the differences are and the historical significance of those as well.
Speaker 2:I think it's also interesting that the Catholic Church is the biggest denomination, certainly in the United States. So we get attacked more, we get critiqued more where other places don't. And unfortunately there have been some bad things that happened in the Catholic Church, such as the Crusades or the Inquisitions and, a recent day, abuse by church leaders, specifically priests. And when that happens many times let's say there's a scandal like that it often makes page one of the paper. And scandals also happen in these other churches Evie Free or Baptist they don't make page one, they don't make page seven. So somehow it gets, I don't know, not tolerated, I don't mean that, but just gets overlooked. When something happens in the church, boom, it's right there. Or the Pope says something, it's right there.
Speaker 1:And you mentioned the Pope, and that's a good segue to my next question, the historical significance of the Pope. I was wondering if you could elaborate on that and what the Pope is supposed to be as a being in the Catholic Church.
Speaker 2:Well, pope comes from the Italian Papa, which means leader of the leaders. It's like father of the fathers. And so it really came about with Paul, st Paul, going about starting different Christian communities all over the Mediterranean world, and then, when he left, he would lead someone in charge. Okay, I'm going to leave now I've got to go somewhere. So, frank, you now are the leader of this small group of the home church with 30 people.
Speaker 2:Well, a lot of those home churches had to kind of coordinate and say, hey, I need money here or you would. Just, paul was just at your place, what's the latest? He said Well, they would coordinate together. And when Paul was in Rome and left, the leader of the Roman church, that person also had money in Rome, as opposed to some of the other places. They would help other people out. So what happened? I don't think it's proper to say that. Jesus said Peter, you are going to be the first pope and then after you appoint somebody else. But it kind of came out of a need where people said we want our leaders to work together.
Speaker 2:So, it's supposed to meet in this little home church, say like in Alexandria in Africa, or this little home church in Thessalonica. We started communicating more and then we started looking to one person, the papa of the papas, the guy in Rome, to like kind of bring us all together. And also, as Paul lived, he updated his theology. When he first wrote 1 Thessalonians, they really thought Jesus was going to come back next week, really Like, hang on, just do what you're doing. He's going to come back. He didn't.
Speaker 2:And so then Paul had to kind of like, oh well, okay, we've got this issue going on. He expanded his theology as he would go visit places and so as they grew with that that's how the Bible came together, the New Testament putting his sources together. They would rely on that. But so it came from the people to say we'd like some kind of organization where we can look to one person to say, hey, could you give us some money? We just had a tornado here. Could you help our orphans or widows out? And also, what's the latest that Paul said, let's put those together.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a very important background knowledge to have and I think, oh, go ahead, it's interesting because right now, any of you listeners, you ask somebody down the street who's the head of the Baptist church, they'd say I don't know. Who's the head of the Jewish faith, I don't know. You ask anybody who's the head of the Catholic church, they'll all say the Pope. They may not know his name, but most do. Now Francis has been around for a while and he's great and so is it better than other ways. It works for us because in a sense I am under the Pope, or I'm under like the Pope said. All priests should do this. I would obey that they're not going to say something weird like we should all wear orange on Tuesdays.
Speaker 1:So it's a hierarchy kind of like in a business where you could have a boss and then that boss has a boss sort of deal, whereas it's the pope, the cardinals, if I'm not mistaken and then branches out from there and bishops yeah, but again, ideally not the pyramid structure that one's holier, but we're all in this together on this same disk and we have different places.
Speaker 2:But it does work organizationally because right now we have a bishop in our area and it's named Patrick Neary and have a bishop in our area and he's named Patrick Neary and so he is, quote-unquote, my boss, so he's the one to, kind of like, tell me my next assignment. Or you could say, hey, we're all going to do this together, we're all gonna, let's say, there's a tornado in Arkansas. Hey, he writes. All of us say we all want to raise money next weekend. Raise, you know, have a collection to raise money for those people in Arkansas. That kind of that best sense of organization.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I met the Pope, or the Pope, the Bishop Patrick in. St Cloud once, and he was. I didn't know who he was. When he came up to me and I was like this is one of the nicest humans I've ever met, and super talkative and easy to talk to, and he was like what's your name? He was like, oh, I'm Patrick. I'm the new bishop in St Cloud. I was like, oh really, Well, pleasure talking to you. That's super nice. He's a good guy.
Speaker 2:He's a good guy. We were very lucky we're assigned bishops. We don't have a say in that, but they try to coordinate people's personalities with an area, like if someone grew up in New York City, they may not do as well down in Louisiana it's just a different mindset or someone's from the West Coast. They try to coordinate that a little bit. But again, it's really trusting the Spirit, trusting the Holy Spirit.
Speaker 1:And just reflecting back on the Pope too and that position throughout history, it's like there's been some terrible things that have happened. You mentioned the Crusades, then also some very beautiful things like Michelangelo paintings and all that, and just how beautiful the Vatican is and how that's inspired so many people throughout history as well through the art that they were able to fund. So that's it.
Speaker 2:There's pros and cons and the church is always growing. We're always trying to improve as opposed to it's. It's always this way it It'll never go. So the idea of arts stretch us and arts open us to a different way of thinking.
Speaker 1:Yes, and mentioning Pope Francis, I'm just curious on what your thoughts are on him as a leader of the Catholic faith right now.
Speaker 2:He was such a breath of fresh air just because, again, he comes from that same background of inclusivity, the same background of like, of who am I to judge when he's talking about gay people, the whole idea. There's a wonderful movie on Netflix called the Two Popes.
Speaker 1:Yep, it's one of my favorite movies.
Speaker 2:It's a great movie and the way that Francis is is the way that I was educated. That whole idea that we've got to be, idea like we got to be tolerant, we have to be inclusive, and I love it. Not that another way is, is bad, but it's just that whole idea that Francis is really looking for the future, looking out for a lot of young people like yourself to say, hey, you know, we're growing, we're searching, we make mistakes, um, we're trying to be more inclusive. I I can't say enough about this hope. I predict he'll be a saint someday when he dies.
Speaker 1:That'd be very cool. It would have you met people that have had the opportunity to meet him?
Speaker 2:Oh, of course, yes, I've seen him, but I haven't met him.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm sure he would be a great podcast guest, if you could get him as a.
Speaker 2:That's when I know I've made it right there. Som Made it right there.
Speaker 1:Someday perhaps We'll see. We'll stick to things in Minnesota for now at least, as a priest, though. You mentioned the trunk and then also the societal changes too. So I'm curious on how you balance tradition with the modern societal changes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like I said, in the Catholic Church we have a set ritual form and so we're always going to start with that and then many times, even in our church, we'll try to expand a little bit, as opposed to like, well, let's bring in some rock music, or let's bring in the drum set, or let's bring in and we'll bring in the Gregorian chant, you know, going to our roots. So it's always going to be based in something we don't want to just like make up something from the start, and I think that gives people a grounding. We know what's coming up. This is the formula. Like I said before, if anybody travels to a different country and the mass is in a different language, they'll understand. Now we're standing must be the gospel. Now we're kneeling must be Eucharistic prayer. So there's things like that. But then also, just in the context of that, is the words that we choose.
Speaker 2:Like when I preach, I'm always trying to be very inclusive, not saying God is a he only or man. God created all mankind. I never say that. Sometimes it comes in the text or sometimes comes in the scriptures, that we have to do it. Many times a lot of churches will change it just to be more relevant. But even within that, it's just to kind of again bring in what's going on. So, prior to the elections we had, I never preached on who to vote for, but I just talked about the whole idea of do vote and the whole idea of use your conscience, think bigger. Think bigger than just yourself or just one issue, and on and on. So trying to educate people how do they respond to immigrants, or how do they respond to the gay marriage issue, or how they respond to it, and all these different things, not telling them what to think, but how to come about that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's important too. I think that's an important thing for educators as well. About that yeah, that's important too. I think that's an important thing, for educators as well, and as a priest, you're almost an educator in the sense you're educating them about the Bible and the gospel and this and that that relates to Catholicism. But teachers as well. You don't want to tell them. Think this way because I think it's right. Here's how some people think. Here's the pros to it. Here's how other people think. That's different to it. Let the listener decide.
Speaker 2:I've heard the line be curious, not furious, like even just talking about anything, ask more questions for anybody just to say, oh huh, I never thought of it that way. Tell me more about why you think this view or you think about that issue.
Speaker 1:I think if we had that philosophy for most people in America, there would be a lot less polarization.
Speaker 2:Exactly, but I think it comes down to the fear thing again. Somehow it's got to be black or white as opposed to no, it could be gray, things could be in the between, and for people like what you mean, we both could be right or we both have a bit of the truth. I think that's beauty.
Speaker 1:Gotcha. Yep, I just have two more questions here for you. Do you think science and religion can live in harmony with one another?
Speaker 2:They always have, they always will. And even St John Paul II. He said we cannot ignore the teachings of evolution. We've got to stop thinking that somehow science and religion are enemies. We never have, Well, the people that we're thinking never have. There are some people who are like anything that's scientific must be evil. It's got to be the Bible only. And again, that just kind of points again out of fear. They want that consistency. So much of science is well, we don't know. We don't know what this is going to lead to. But no, I definitely think and francis keeps bringing that up he'll. He'll talk about here's what's happening with, especially with climate change.
Speaker 2:That's one of his big issues yeah here's the evidence we have that science has given us yeah, that's important too.
Speaker 1:I think that makes it more relatable to people maybe that are on the fence about joining the faith as well and they hear that, um, they're more relatable to people maybe that are on the fence about joining the faith as well and they hear that, um, they're more inclusive to that line of thinking right allows more people to be less skeptical which gets tough when you get out there with fake news yeah and sources.
Speaker 2:can we trust this source? You, of course you said but is that accurate? Or I think of things like vaccinations, and the people have a goal Like well, no, here's the facts. Well, those are your facts. Those aren't the real facts, and on and on and on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, that's an interesting perspective too. And it affects the people in the priesthood and just people in everyday lives. It does. My last question to end on a positive note here. You've alluded to this as well, but just curious on what gives you hope for the future.
Speaker 2:Wow, Well, great question, Mason. By the way, you're an excellent interviewer. Thank you, you do a great job. Appreciate it. Besides the fact that it's in my nature to hope, I think I've been very blessed as a person. I think I'm one of those. The glass is always half full and there's always goodness. I attribute that to my family, my upbringing With God. My relationship with God is always hopeful. I don't view God as vengeful, or getting me back, or you said this didn't do that.
Speaker 2:But I guess what gives me hope is young people. I have an opportunity to do a lot of work with young people and I just I find your generation is more willing to get involved, roll up your sleeves to do something like whether it's work, the food kitchen or we're getting involved in this and I think just the curiosity and certainly the energy, the spirit is good. So what gives me hope is the youth of our church, youth of the world, that's great.
Speaker 1:A lot of responsibility for us young people, but we welcome challenges like that Well. Father Kevin, thanks for letting me talk to you today. I appreciate it.
Speaker 2:And thank you, Mason.
Speaker 1:Thank you for listening to Youthful Perspectives. I hope this conversation added more knowledge to a topic you hold dear to yourself or exposed you to a different line of thinking from one you already possess. For me, I deeply appreciated Father Kevin's emphasis on being more loving and inclusive and how this Christ-like way of conducting oneself can create a ripple effect of hope and goodness. I also liked his emphasis on journaling and being more introspective in our daily lives, with dopamine capturing apps like TikTok and Instagram preventing us from effectively reflecting within ourselves. Father Kevin's reminder of the usefulness this exercise can entail is what I hope to incorporate into my life during this new year. Finally, father Kevin's profound interaction with God on that October evening reinforced the importance of pursuing your calling in life and being open to the signs that lead you to it. Once we achieve this, the quality of our lives will almost always improve. As Viktor Frankl poetically stated, those who have a why to live can bear with almost any how. This is Mason Bierbaum signing off.
